Tal­mu­dic Ques­tion #85

If small mi­crobes tend to be eaten by big­ger ones, why aren't all mi­crobes big?
 

 

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Corey Philipp
14 years ago

There is no doubt that this looks like the clas­sic DNA model. How­ever, this strikes me as be­ing two snakes which might make a very in­ter­est­ing story shared around a fire 600 years ago. I'm sure the story ex­plained the nat­ural world as they saw it back then. Very totem pole like. It also strikes me as hav­ing a re­li­gious tone re­lat­ing to the snakes and the gar­den but these peo­ple would not have en­coun­tered the Chris­t­ian phi­los­o­phy.

14 years ago

Is this ba­si­cally the same ques­tion as ask­ing why not all an­i­mals are li­ons?
Elio replies: So, why aren't they?

14 years ago

The dou­ble snake is the com­mon icon for eter­nity and life on the shaman cul­ture. True, it's supris­ing to see con­ver­gence with our faith!

barry
14 years ago

i thought eu­kary­otes got big cause they can en­gulph each other. no cell wall, dy­namic cy­toskele­ton.. do bac­te­ria do that? they got cell walls. i thought small mi­crobes in­vade big­ger ones not get eaten by big­ger ones. do you have ex­am­ples?
and why be a lion if you can be a wasp? or a spi­der for that mat­ter, they suck the juices out of ya, don't have to en­gulph.

Jake Bailey
14 years ago

To me it looks like a ver­sion of the zig-zag pat­terns com­monly seen in Na­tive Amer­i­can art. There it of­ten sym­bol­izes light­ning.

14 years ago

#85 Elio, is the observation/assumption un­der­ly­ing the ques­tion cor­rect? Are men eat­ing bugs (sure!) or the bugs eat­ing us (cer­tainly)? A ying-yang thing, sort of. The piles of the­o­ret­i­cal ben­e­fits & draw­backs of be­ing small-sized and kin­size will prob­a­bly in equi­lib­rium, and the ac­tual point in time (prac­tice, not the­ory) then tips the bal­ance. And that, fi­nally, re­minds me on your tale of the en­dosym­biont (small genome) sit­ting out­side and the host in­side (can't find the link in Your blog, sorry).
The pic­to­graph: Na­tives dis­cussing on a 'white­board' the novel way of weav­ing — or the newest fash­ion in knit­ting, maybe?

Francisco Torrella
14 years ago

This Tal­mu­dic ques­tion, in a way, be­longs to the bio­di­ver­sity field. In this planet we call Earth, from the very mo­ment live ap­peared as such, "if a site can har­bour life, that site, sooner or later will "at least" har­bour mi­cro­bial life", mean­ing that other kinds of life may or may not be there, but that the ad­mirably adapt­able mi­cro­bial kind of life surely will thrive there. Mi­crobes are every­where life can es­tab­lish in. Now: how many of these sites could one find in the planet we live in? From the microbe's "point of view", these sites are mi­cro­hab­i­tats. In­deed there is a huge di­ver­sity of them on the planet. (Here the sense of the word mi­cro­hab­i­tat ex­tends to the con­cept "mi­croniche").
Mi­crobes are se­lected for and adapt to these huge di­ver­sity of mi­cro­hab­i­tats / mi­croniches. As it hap­pens with many other life form char­ac­ter­is­tics, size and form of mi­crobes are also se­lected for. In fact, size and form are in­deed very im­por­tant as­pects of be­ing a liv­ing be­ing, even a small liv­ing be­ing. Small mi­crobes ex­ist be­cause there are mi­croniches for them to take profit of, to be adapted at, to make a life out of it, to be able to re­pro­duce there and col­o­nize the space, etc., etc. Other mi­crobes, mostly pro­to­zoa, take profit of this and make a liv­ing out of con­sum­ing the smaller ones.
So: Why mi­crobes aren't all of them big, or square shaped, or cylin­dri­cal, or, for that case, big or small. They are like that be­cause there are a va­ri­ety of mi­croniches (= "life strate­gies") of­fered to mi­cro­bial life. And life "re­sponds to the of­fer", and a va­ri­ety of small mi­crobes find their fit­ness in be­ing small, and oth­ers, the mi­cro­biovoric ones, find their fit­ness in con­sum­ing the smaller ones pro­vided there are enough of the first ones to main­tain the pop­u­la­tions of the sec­ond type.
IN FACT IT IS A TRUE CHALLENGING AND VERY PRODUCTIVE INTELECTUAL EXERCISE TRYING TO ANSWER WHY A LIVING CREATURE IS AS IT REALLY IS, IF ONE LOVES TO BE CREATIVE IN BIOSCIENCES ... So, if you are not tired, put your mind to work think­ing why a small, or if you want, a very small mi­crobe is as it is. In other words: which is its mi­croniche? Chal­leng­ing, real chal­leng­ing and in­struc­tive...

14 years ago

I love the photo, Elio. There is a sim­i­lar de­sign in my shower, and though it is not as old as the pic­to­graph, it is cer­tainly older than 1950.
Re­gard­ing size and such, there are many bal­anc­ing is­sues. This book was help­ful to me in my un­der­grad­u­ate days:
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Big-Fierce-Animals-Rare/dp/0691023646
Cells have a usual size be­cause of trans­port and ser­vic­ing is­sues. There is more of an en­er­getic cost to large or­gan­isms, and less mo­bil­ity, and so forth.
In gen­eral, larger crea­tures are said to be more vul­ner­a­ble to en­vi­ron­men­tal changes:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/13/large.predators.vulnerable/index.html
Once again, the pri­macy of the mi­cro­bial world re­veals it­self. Mi­cro­bial su­prema­cists like my­self fully ex­pect that mi­cro­bial ecol­ogy will be­gin to ex­pli­cate "macro" eco­log­i­cal ques­tions, just as mi­cro­bi­ol­ogy il­lu­mi­nated (and made pos­si­ble, in my view) bio­chem­istry, ge­net­ics, and mol­e­c­u­lar bi­ol­ogy.

Nathan Myers
14 years ago

Ob­vi­ously, if they were big, they wouldn't be mi­crobes at all, they'd be mac­robes. Sheesh.
About the pic­to­graph: Re­al­iz­ing that he­lices can nest is a heady in­sight. But why don't we see more three- or four-strand he­lices in na­ture, or in art? In na­ture we are more likely to find sec­ondary and ter­tiary he­lic­ity in­stead. Maybe it's hard enough to vi­su­al­ize and draw a dou­ble he­lix.
The only triple-he­lix that comes to mind is more con­cep­tual than phys­i­cal: the E‑M fields that show up in three-phase ma­chines and trans­mis­sion sys­tems.

Benedetto
14 years ago

I usu­ally think that the com­mu­nity size struc­ture emerges based on trade-off. Smaller or­gan­isms can gen­er­ally ac­quire re­sources at lower con­cen­tra­tion and, for an os­motroph or an au­totroph, the num­ber of mol­e­cules up taken for unit vol­ume is pro­por­tional to the sur­face to vol­ume ra­tio, i.e. it de­creases with size. On the other hand, big­ger or­gan­isms have gen­er­ally lower mor­tal­ity rates (also that due to pre­da­tion).
For phagotrophic or­gan­isms, I think it is quite the same: a big­ger or­gan­isms de­creases both its mor­tal­ity and its growth rate and, at the end, it reaches lower abun­dances and also less copies of its genes in the en­vi­ron­ment than a smaller or­gan­ism.
Un­der the hy­pothe­ses that the smaller size is an ad­van­tage at low re­sources and that the pres­ence of big­ger size classes in­creases the mor­tal­ity of smaller ones, the mean/maximum size sus­tained by a com­mu­nity de­pends on the flux of en­ergy and mat­ter processed by the ecosys­tem.

Nathan Myers
14 years ago

I am also re­minded of the cre­ation­ists' con­fu­sion, which might be para­phrased "if am­phib­ians evolved from fish, why are there still fish?". In many en­vi­ron­ments, larger mi­crobes (all else be­ing equal) might be se­lected against. In par­tic­u­lar, large mi­crobes that de­pend on eat­ing smaller ones do poorly once they have eaten all the smaller ones.